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	<title>Comments on: Regarding Expectations</title>
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	<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/</link>
	<description>A SITE FOR INDIAN FEMINISTS</description>
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		<title>By: vidya</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1038</link>
		<dc:creator>vidya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 14:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1038</guid>
		<description>I did feel  that the earlier post was not exactly coherent. And that perception was more so because it came from a person known for writing with clarify and strength of conviction. But if we stop to think why it was incoherent we&#039;ll know what the evils of  cyberstalking, cyberbullying/cyberfrisking has on the effect of the psyche of women. It doesn&#039;t instantaneously affect you but gnaws at your strength repeatedly over a period of time and erodes it. I have seen similar reactions with other bloggers. Infact I see it as the extension of the same behavior on physical space on the virtual space w.r.to fostering invisibility.

So in essence it reduces the strength of women , reduces their ability to voice opinions. A pachydermic attitude is all easy to advocate when it comes to generic issues but when things affect you personally it is unfair on any normal humanbeing to be objective, well-informed. You do not know what the person actually went through and even if they have the strength to deal with it and knows ways to tackle it it still does impact them.

I do agree that solutions need not emerge out of each post. A voice, an opinion can draw attention to an issue and trigger a solution somewhere.

That said , could we please do away with the don&#039;t like don&#039;t read bit? That will only lead to group think. But in the end what bothers me on this issue is when you read various tips to combat cyberstalking most of them have things like choose genderless screennames(this one from information week), avoid and step out of conflict which really aren&#039;t solutions. Other than IP tracing, reporting to ISP,banning users, (extreme cases) there is not much one can do. Any other action ideas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did feel  that the earlier post was not exactly coherent. And that perception was more so because it came from a person known for writing with clarify and strength of conviction. But if we stop to think why it was incoherent we&#8217;ll know what the evils of  cyberstalking, cyberbullying/cyberfrisking has on the effect of the psyche of women. It doesn&#8217;t instantaneously affect you but gnaws at your strength repeatedly over a period of time and erodes it. I have seen similar reactions with other bloggers. Infact I see it as the extension of the same behavior on physical space on the virtual space w.r.to fostering invisibility.</p>
<p>So in essence it reduces the strength of women , reduces their ability to voice opinions. A pachydermic attitude is all easy to advocate when it comes to generic issues but when things affect you personally it is unfair on any normal humanbeing to be objective, well-informed. You do not know what the person actually went through and even if they have the strength to deal with it and knows ways to tackle it it still does impact them.</p>
<p>I do agree that solutions need not emerge out of each post. A voice, an opinion can draw attention to an issue and trigger a solution somewhere.</p>
<p>That said , could we please do away with the don&#8217;t like don&#8217;t read bit? That will only lead to group think. But in the end what bothers me on this issue is when you read various tips to combat cyberstalking most of them have things like choose genderless screennames(this one from information week), avoid and step out of conflict which really aren&#8217;t solutions. Other than IP tracing, reporting to ISP,banning users, (extreme cases) there is not much one can do. Any other action ideas.</p>
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		<title>By: Anindita Sengupta</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1037</link>
		<dc:creator>Anindita Sengupta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1037</guid>
		<description>Swar: There is a difference between defending what is said in a post, and defending someone&#039;s right to write it.

This space can take critics but should it not be allowed to respond to them as well?

The fact that a few people think a post is incoherent doesn&#039;t mean that everyone thinks so. Or that the post has no value. Or that it is not making any valid points or raising any issues. The editors on this site do not presume to tell contributors what they should or should not think.

A lots of gender issues are complex and many-sided and difficult to untangle. The reason UV was set up in the first place was to give women a space to talk things out, untangle some things, arrive at clarity in some cases. The process may not always be coherent or smooth or easy.

In that sense, you&#039;re right, it was never meant to be that much &quot;more&quot; than a personal blog -- if you read the manifesto, you will see what i mean. The idea was never to be an expert forum pontificating on issues, a magazine of feminist theory. The idea was to be a space for women to, ironically, freely express themselves. To reflect as comprehensively as possible how things are for women in India and the things they feel strongly about. It is based on a principle of inclusion, rather than selection and exclusion.

Perhaps, there is a mismatch between your expectations and what the site is trying to do. I had hoped people like you, who have such well-formed opinions, would help others by talking, discussing, engaging. Clearly, you&#039;re looking for something else, something that other sites will be able to fulfill better.

Thank you for the good wishes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Swar: There is a difference between defending what is said in a post, and defending someone&#8217;s right to write it.</p>
<p>This space can take critics but should it not be allowed to respond to them as well?</p>
<p>The fact that a few people think a post is incoherent doesn&#8217;t mean that everyone thinks so. Or that the post has no value. Or that it is not making any valid points or raising any issues. The editors on this site do not presume to tell contributors what they should or should not think.</p>
<p>A lots of gender issues are complex and many-sided and difficult to untangle. The reason UV was set up in the first place was to give women a space to talk things out, untangle some things, arrive at clarity in some cases. The process may not always be coherent or smooth or easy.</p>
<p>In that sense, you&#8217;re right, it was never meant to be that much &#8220;more&#8221; than a personal blog &#8212; if you read the manifesto, you will see what i mean. The idea was never to be an expert forum pontificating on issues, a magazine of feminist theory. The idea was to be a space for women to, ironically, freely express themselves. To reflect as comprehensively as possible how things are for women in India and the things they feel strongly about. It is based on a principle of inclusion, rather than selection and exclusion.</p>
<p>Perhaps, there is a mismatch between your expectations and what the site is trying to do. I had hoped people like you, who have such well-formed opinions, would help others by talking, discussing, engaging. Clearly, you&#8217;re looking for something else, something that other sites will be able to fulfill better.</p>
<p>Thank you for the good wishes.</p>
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		<title>By: swar</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1036</link>
		<dc:creator>swar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:27:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1036</guid>
		<description>I was actually thinking of sending a guest post as well as posting a counter-post on my own blog re Meena&#039;s post. But travel got in between. But after reading this new post, I think I will take your advice. I won&#039;t read UV again. If this space is going to defend half-baked posts that smacks of dishonesty just because a woman has written it, If this space cannot take critics, If this space is no different from a jumpy personal blog, If this space is going to be incoherent for the sake of angst, well, this is your space. My best for all your future efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was actually thinking of sending a guest post as well as posting a counter-post on my own blog re Meena&#8217;s post. But travel got in between. But after reading this new post, I think I will take your advice. I won&#8217;t read UV again. If this space is going to defend half-baked posts that smacks of dishonesty just because a woman has written it, If this space cannot take critics, If this space is no different from a jumpy personal blog, If this space is going to be incoherent for the sake of angst, well, this is your space. My best for all your future efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: Anindita Sengupta</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1035</link>
		<dc:creator>Anindita Sengupta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 09:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1035</guid>
		<description>Falstaff: I&#039;m sorry you feel that way.

Anu: There are things I don&#039;t agree in Meena&#039;s post but I agree that it&#039;s brought up some things we should talk about. I wrote about this dilemma on my personal blog some time back (http://aninditasengupta.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/the-self-is-elsewhere/). At the time, I didn&#039;t really talk about it as a gender issue or a feminist issue but I remember feeling extremely vulnerable and I think this sense of vulnerability affects many of us. Why are women more susceptible? Because women are more likely to be judged for their opinions and openness about certain topics.

For example, I&#039;m pretty sure that even UV bloggers steer clear of certain topics, say sex and sexuality or marriage (which Unmana broke finally), because of the fear of people extrapolating from their opinions to judge their personal lives. But there is little we can do about this besides steeling ourselves and writing anyway. It is a risk, but it would be a risk even if one was writing in a magazine. We&#039;re not more vulnerable on the Internet; we&#039;re simply more aware of our vulnerability,  and more traceable.

So I would say:
1) developing a thick skin
2) talking about it as wrong, unsavoury, unpleasant, disgusting, just talking against it so that there are counter voices.
3) I think the policing line needs to be drawn at threatening comments. After all, one would report threatening letters, so why not email or comments?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Falstaff: I&#8217;m sorry you feel that way.</p>
<p>Anu: There are things I don&#8217;t agree in Meena&#8217;s post but I agree that it&#8217;s brought up some things we should talk about. I wrote about this dilemma on my personal blog some time back (<a href="http://aninditasengupta.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/the-self-is-elsewhere/" rel="nofollow">http://aninditasengupta.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/the-self-is-elsewhere/</a>). At the time, I didn&#8217;t really talk about it as a gender issue or a feminist issue but I remember feeling extremely vulnerable and I think this sense of vulnerability affects many of us. Why are women more susceptible? Because women are more likely to be judged for their opinions and openness about certain topics.</p>
<p>For example, I&#8217;m pretty sure that even UV bloggers steer clear of certain topics, say sex and sexuality or marriage (which Unmana broke finally), because of the fear of people extrapolating from their opinions to judge their personal lives. But there is little we can do about this besides steeling ourselves and writing anyway. It is a risk, but it would be a risk even if one was writing in a magazine. We&#8217;re not more vulnerable on the Internet; we&#8217;re simply more aware of our vulnerability,  and more traceable.</p>
<p>So I would say:<br />
1) developing a thick skin<br />
2) talking about it as wrong, unsavoury, unpleasant, disgusting, just talking against it so that there are counter voices.<br />
3) I think the policing line needs to be drawn at threatening comments. After all, one would report threatening letters, so why not email or comments?</p>
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		<title>By: anu</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1034</link>
		<dc:creator>anu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 08:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1034</guid>
		<description>2 out of the 9 regular writer&#039;s from UV, have come out to say that they are/have been subjected to cyber abuse and stalking. That to me is the significant part, hence &#039;my angst&#039; that we listen a little more carefully and respond thoughtfully.

I read many post here, where comments are mild to strong to sometimes unpleasant and that seemed fine, life. But Meena&#039;s  post here and Sharanya&#039;s post on her blog started addressing  something personal, that has implications for the rest of us on the web. And this needs our less than usual earnestness in breaking down an argument..............

http://sharanyamanivannan.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/what-it-feels-like-for-a-girl/

Viewing cyberstalking objectively is a tough job as it is a subjective experience and the way it is being handled by the victim, will call on many many things................. which we can keep pulling apart. And in the process forget the crime and perpetrators........ waste useful discussion time focused not on the crime or the solutions.........

Since, I wrote that post on my blog I have had to unapprove comments from agencies that are advertising cyberstalking detecting expertise.......... there apparently seems like a nice thriving private industry behind this phenomenon. That to me also indicates that more and more victims are using private means to handle this.......all pointing to the gaping holes in legislation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>2 out of the 9 regular writer&#8217;s from UV, have come out to say that they are/have been subjected to cyber abuse and stalking. That to me is the significant part, hence &#8216;my angst&#8217; that we listen a little more carefully and respond thoughtfully.</p>
<p>I read many post here, where comments are mild to strong to sometimes unpleasant and that seemed fine, life. But Meena&#8217;s  post here and Sharanya&#8217;s post on her blog started addressing  something personal, that has implications for the rest of us on the web. And this needs our less than usual earnestness in breaking down an argument&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..</p>
<p><a href="http://sharanyamanivannan.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/what-it-feels-like-for-a-girl/" rel="nofollow">http://sharanyamanivannan.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/what-it-feels-like-for-a-girl/</a></p>
<p>Viewing cyberstalking objectively is a tough job as it is a subjective experience and the way it is being handled by the victim, will call on many many things&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.. which we can keep pulling apart. And in the process forget the crime and perpetrators&#8230;&#8230;.. waste useful discussion time focused not on the crime or the solutions&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>Since, I wrote that post on my blog I have had to unapprove comments from agencies that are advertising cyberstalking detecting expertise&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;. there apparently seems like a nice thriving private industry behind this phenomenon. That to me also indicates that more and more victims are using private means to handle this&#8230;&#8230;.all pointing to the gaping holes in legislation.</p>
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		<title>By: Falstaff</title>
		<link>http://ultraviolet.in/2008/11/04/and-you-were-saying/comment-page-1/#comment-1033</link>
		<dc:creator>Falstaff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://youngfeminists.wordpress.com/?p=343#comment-1033</guid>
		<description>&quot;Not all those things have to be perfectly logical little pieces of social / cultural critique. Not all of them have to come with their five-point solution for saving the world. If you don’t like that, don’t read&quot;

Done. I&#039;ve unsubscribed from the RSS feed and deleted you from my bookmarks.

Such a disappointment this site turned out to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Not all those things have to be perfectly logical little pieces of social / cultural critique. Not all of them have to come with their five-point solution for saving the world. If you don’t like that, don’t read&#8221;</p>
<p>Done. I&#8217;ve unsubscribed from the RSS feed and deleted you from my bookmarks.</p>
<p>Such a disappointment this site turned out to be.</p>
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